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January 12, 2005

Comments

cspew

Well I never!!! I am totally offended by your use of the word "dick". I think you still could have gotten you message across by using a less offensive term like "asshole", which really fits better in this context. Hrmph!

You're really hitting the nail on the head in your last paragraph there. Isn't that the thrust of Jesus' ministry on earth? Jesus came as a member of the poor class (there was no such thing as a middle class back then) and railed against the injustices of the church on their people. He encouraged "open commenciality", which meant small groups of close friends who shared everything and spent time together. What you're advocating here (even if people didn't agree with you 100%) certainly MORE resembles Jesus' life than does the church today.

One interesting note is that the early church did have pockets of people here and there called "churches". It's not clear how large these churches were and how they were organized. It's also not clear how long it took for the early church to get into the corruption of power and money and politics. (probably not long!) I wouldn't hold anyone to the limit of 10 or 15 or 20 people; however, I agree with a smaller group in practice - it would be easier to keep it free of the stumbling points.

What's your take on the great commission? If being a diciple of Jesus means doing what you advocate above, do you think one of our missions as Christians is to spread this good word to others? You don't seem as concerned about everyone agreeing on the same thing... is it important at all to keep the faith "going"?


cspew

One clarification: I don't mean in my above statement that the great commission is used to attempt to increase the membership of a single church, but rather that it is used to pass the way of life (and, yes, knowledge - even if we're not saved by it) to future generations.

Rob

Churches in the first century were house churches; no Roman house could hold more than about 15 people. Thus, the limit. But it is arbitrary. So a person was said to have a church "in her house" and all that means is an "assembly" or "gathering" in her house. This did not entail that the "church" was to become a separate entity. When Christians gathered together they called it a "gathering". That's all. I'm trying to remove the term "church" as a technical term with all the associated baggage.

One reason I call the new church the viral church is because it reproduces like a virus, by infecting people with the gospel. But this is far different from "evangelism" as many understand it today. Evangelism today is about getting people to agree with a set number of facts about my religion (the creed) and then having them make a public declaration about that. I think this is heresy. The gospel was never about a set of facts. How many facts did the theif on the cross know?

In order to keep the "faith" going, there would have to be one faith. But that has never been true. As cozy as the Evangelicals have been getting to Catholics lately, for example, they will always consider them heretics for praying to the saints. In other words, thinking that there is one faith is simply a manipulation aimed at keeping you under control; it has nothing to do with God.

Brian Gigee

Good thoughts. "Viral," however, has a negative connotation in our culture. Most folks are not happy to have been "viraled" but the image is noteworthy. Why not, "connecting" church? The greek term, "ekklasia," means the "calling out" people of God or the "called out" people of God who are open to the work of the Holy Spirit "connecting" people together to form church.

And as for the church giving away money vs. asking for money, you need to remember that St. Paul asked for money everywhere he went...so that he could send gifts back to Jerusalem to assist the women and orphans. All the money belongs to God! It's the church's task to see that there is just distribution and that's what you don't like...the church spending more on itself than others...SO, what's your plan for collecting and sharing all that belongs to God?

Again, I appreciate your thoughts but they need a dash of grace as it is far more easy to blame than it is to understand...

Jonathan Oleson

Cool discussion, have you all read the paper or visited the forum at viralchurch.com? Love to hear this discussion continue. Seems that all of us are a product of the corporate church and many are eager to experience something else. Can't wait to see what the second generation viral Christians will look like! Undoubtedly some viral churches will turn corporate...

I don't know if I take such a hard line as to say that all corporate churches are failing but definitely 60% if not 80%... Do you have to bash one paradigm in order to support another? Guess I'm still sitting on the fence waiting to see how this viral thing works out. Very intriguing just so new that there's no research or history yet.

Rob

Thanks for the comments. I will make sure to visit that site. Actually my problem with the church handling money is philosophical and would not change even if most churches handled money rightly. I don't see what money has to do with the church at all. And just because Paul does something doesn't mean I buy into it. :)

Keith

Your thoughts on "viral church" are so thought provoking. I really have a hard time with the use of language in this context (or I guess any context). I grew up using foul language like a second language, so I know what it is to be caught up in it. But I will say that what your describing as a church more closely fits with God's thinking in many ways.

Growing up in a very conservative church, I have a "default mode" of thinking. I fall back into it many times. It is hard to let go of the past and "think" when you have grown up this way.

I am trying, however. Our little church is really trying to break free from the thinking of the past. I am the pulpit minister for a small church in the south and trying to teach "us" to be this infectious group of people God has called us to is difficult. It's kind of like the Star Trek movie, "The Undiscovered Country." One of the statements made in that movie says, "If there is ever going to be the new universe of togetherness, how will it ever get past people like me."

I prefer to call this new thinking on church as many are calling it--the "emerging church." What is emerging is exciting and in many ways strange to us. But I do think things are changing for the better. It will just take time.

Hope this all makes some sense and thanks for letting me comment here.

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