Spot On - The Atonement Problem

I have been struggling with a question that has bothered me since I became a Christian. Lately I've been seeing it as part of a key to answering some of the larger questions I have. The problem I have is with the Atonement. In much (though not all) of orthodox main-line Christianity, the Sacrificial Atonement of Christ is the essential truth that Christ brought to us. There are various versions, but basically the idea is that we all sin (or Adam did) and the penalty of sin is death. Christ, by paying this penalty for us (sacrifical) allows us to be reconciled with God (atonement). So Christ's death was necessary because it allows those of us who've "accepted it" (and what this means varies with denomination) to be reunited with God.

Except, as in much of what the church teaches, there is a deep underlying flaw in this logic. Follow with me please. God is supposed to be the creator of the universe. He is not bound by the universe, neither by time nor space, but exists independently outside of it, eternal and perfect. This is a God I can get into. Much better than the petty human gods people normally create.

1. God is perfect and good, loving and all-powerful.
2. We sinned (either through Adam or each of us in our daily lives).
3. The penalty of sin is death (eternal death, that is, hell).
4. Without Christ's sacrifice we all rightfully burn in hell for eternity.

What is the problem with this logic? The problem is number 3. Why is the penalty for sin death? If we assume the kind of God who means something, then it must come from him. Why did God create a universe in which he knew sin would be commonplace and then make the penalty for sin, death? Let's attempt an answer and I'll show why it has problems.

The thing that makes God interesting to me is that he is a consciousness. In a universe of matter and energy, consciousness is a curiosity, no more. In a universe driven by a conscious being like God, consciousness becomes the most precious thing in the universe. This accords well with the way we think of ourselves. We are, of course, finite and God is infinite, but we are still more similar to God than we are to the dust. This gives us hope.

We might argue that since God designed the entire universe to create consciousnesses, that the harming of another consciousness would be the greatest crime, opposing directly God's intent for the universe. If we consider what Jesus said about treating other people the way we'd like to be treated as the essential definition of right action, then sin is mistreating people. Thus, sin, according to Jesus, is mistreating the very thing that God made the whole universe for, other people.  The penalty for this great crime is death. This seems to make sense.

But it only seems to make sense. If the penalty for harming another consciousness is the death of that consciousness, then God is violating his own law. Take murder. I murder someone. Say they did not accept the atonement, so when I kill them they go to hell. Now I die and for my sin God sends me to hell. Now instead of one lost consciousness, there are two. God's law has exacerbated his own problem. It has in no way protected consciousnesses, but actually increased the number of lost consciousnesses. In fact, since sin seems to be the normal way of life here (which God knew), he seems to have doomed his project from the beginning.

Some will say I'm crazy for trying to figure out God, that it is a mystery. That God's ways are not man's ways. It would seem, however, that at least at the central point of all theology God's methods would make more sense. To me most views of the atonement have Jesus appearing as a band-aid on the big screw up of God's creation, as if God didn't realize his creation would sin morning, noon, and night. So Jesus is sent to pay the penalty for everyone. Except he doesn't pay your penalty if you don't say the right prayer or belong to the right church or have a proper theology or allow mixed marriages or don't vote republican. Or whatever the hot topic that sends people to hell is today. The menu changes constantly, and you never know what the sin d'jour will be. It certainly won't be what the pastor is doing in the back room, however.

So what if the penalty for sin wasn't death? What if Paul was just an interpreter of Jesus, just like any other interpreter. We know that most of the apostles that walked with Jesus disagreed with his theology. We also know that Luther, when he moved Romans to preeminence among the books of the bible, threw out James because it disagreed with his argument. That is where this theology comes from. It comes from a priest who several hundred years ago created a theology in opposition to the Roman Catholic church, which required payment for sins with gold. What if Luther's theology went too far in the other direction? What if Paul were just a man who saw God one way, and James was a man who saw God another way? In other words, what if their interpretations of Jesus' work are no more valid than yours or mine?

Jesus did not ask the thief on the cross if he accepted the sacrificial atonement. Nor did he ask the woman caught in adultery. Nor did he mention it to the Samartian woman at the well. In fact, Jesus doesn't use the vocabulary of atonement. He often says things like his followers "believe in him", "will have eternal life in him", "follow him", "do what he says", etc. For a good section of uninterrupted speaking by Jesus, check out John 17. There is definitely a promise of eternal life for those who believe in him, but there is nothing about a sacrificial atonement. Even John 3.16 mentions no such thing. If the sacrificial atonement is so important, why doesn't Jesus mention it? Only those who come after Jesus talk about a sacrifice. Peter and Paul mostly. James doesn't make much of it either, and he was the head of the church.

What does Jesus talk about? He talks about treating people the way we want to be treated. He talks about loving God and communicating with God. He talks about forsaking the world and its treasures to find the true treasure in God.

So what if Luther was wrong, or, at least went too far? What if we remove the sacrificial atonement from Christianity? The sacrificial atonement is just one theory of Christ's death that Christians have held. We think it is the only view because the church has immersed us in the view. But other Christians through the ages have held different views. What if we take an examplar view of the death of Christ? Put simply the examplar view is that Christ's death is an example to us, not a sacrifice for us. Christ died to the world physically to show that we must die to the world spiritually. To follow Christ is to follow him in his death. That is, we no longer value what the world values, we value what God values. This view accords well with the way Jesus himself talked of his death, and especially the idea of following Christ.

But without the atonement, doesn't the universal law of sin condemn us all to hell? In short, no. Such fears are engendered by a church that wants you to depend upon them as a mediator with God, to let them control your lives and take your money. But do not be mistaken. Hell is a real thing. It is reserved for those who mistreat people without repentence, who claim to follow Christ and then ignore most of what Christ teaches, and who stand in the way of those who want God. To those of us who strive after God, to hear his voice and to treat people rightly, only heaven awaits. And no silly prayer or communion or statement of faith can change that.

Comments

[Remnant]

Amen :)

makes sense to me ...

"love them to me" Jesus would say!

But in today's churches there is no love, just condemnation!

That is probably why Jesus asks:
"when I return will there be any faith on the earth"!

Trust in HIM, Love HIM, Forgive others, even your enemies ... and serve/care for His children!
If you love HIM .. you will honor HIM ... not manmade religious leaders ....
good one Rob!
Love mom

[Erick]

What did adam and eve do that was a sin? Why the whole Garden mythos?

[Rob]

Well, exactly. If I am right and sin has to do with damaging fellow humans, then I don't see how Adam and Eve did that. Clearly, the point of Genesis 2 is that they disobeyed God and that in itself is a sin. But that's not the God I believe in. I don't see how you can believe in a God who punishes without reason those who disobey his whim. Damaging other people is a reasonable definition of sin, since people are unique in the universe and people are the only things in the universe like God in the sense of being self-aware. Even as a metaphor for obedience the Genesis account fails, because God not only set them up, but he provides the serpent to tempt them.

What I draw from the Genesis account is that God's universe is necessarily chaotic (to provide the diversity of creation) and that chaos has the downside of providing a fertile ground for sin. This is fine, if God has a solution to the sin problem. I don't think the substitutionary atonement is a good solution to the sin problem. Follwing Jesus, however, does seem like a good solution.

[Remnant]

I have been studying and praying ... And I have been thinking about some of what you said. And then Erick told me how you and he had a long talk about it ...
Now bear with me for a minute because this is coming from a "faith and belief" in Jesus that is 52 years old ...
I have been tossed and abused by the world and HE is the only thing that makes sense ...all else is noise and clatter if we take our eyes off of HIM!

In the Old Testament:
All of Israel were
sheltered by the blood of the Passover lamb, all went through the Red Sea,
all were led by the pillar of fire and cloud, all partook of the manna and
of the water from the rock, etc. Jesus the Christ is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe. And He is forshadowed in all those things ...and in every book of the bible.
He is the the LION of Judah and He is David on the Throne forever and ever ...

Messiah Jesus is in the Bible buried in parables from Genesis to Revelation!

In the New Testament:
Jesus is the House Built on good soil. He is the vineyard keeper, the shepherd, the lamb, the bridegroom ...
He is the foundation stone of the church. He is the rock, the pearl of great price, the treasure buried in the field that a man would sell all that he had to possess !
True He taught in parables about goodness and love ..BUT he knew that his hearers (who as you say understood the idioms of the day and time)were waiting for the Messiah and he told them over and over WHO HE WAS ...
"IF YOU HAVE EARS to hear"
"My sheep hear my voice" ..
"If I be lifted up all men will be drawn to ME"

So since all the prophets and all of the law ... SHOUTS of HIM ... when He INCARNATED ... He didn't need to go around and say "I am the atonement"

He did, though, tell the Pharasees :
"If you believed in Moses (and were his follower) you would believe in Me because Moses taught of Me!"
Remember Moses never saw the promised land because he struck the rock and didn't speak to it ..
moses tried to do it his way and not GODS way ..
So even though we all KNOW the organized church is weak, and filled with "tares" that are strangling the message God has for His people ...
We must pray and seek new ways to tell them the "message that is inside the message" ...

It is there, if we just let HIM lead us and if we listen to HIS voice, because as HIS OWN CHILDREN ... we "have ears to hear" !
I am thankful God got us all out of the Laodician Church, and is turning us, through adversity into the Philadelphia Church!

Stay safe and pray for me .. I am flying to Memphis on Saturday 9/17 to see your little sister mary ....
I cannot wait! :)
I love you and Kris,
mom

[Ben]

I don't know if this will ever be read because it is so long after the original post, but I pray that is.

Your disregard for the atonement neglects the Old Testament. As Remnant noted, the Law and the prophets speak of Jesus extensively (Luke 24:27). The Levitical Law and the sacrificial system foreshadow the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. The Day of Atonement in throughout the Old Testament foreshadows that day on Calvary's hill the Lamb of God was slain, laying down His own life to bear our sins. Isaiah 53:6 speaks of God the Father laying all our iniquities on Him. That Lamb had to bear our iniquities so that God's wrath towards our violation of His commandments (which are a reflection of His character that delights to do justice, righteousness, and lovingkindness [or mercy]--Jer. 9:24) would be satisfied.

Read Isaiah 53. It "pleased" or it was the Father's "good pleasure" to "crush" His Son.

His justice demands punishment for sin--sin against Him and others. We offend the infinitely holy God by violating his Law, which is summed up by not loving Him and not loving others. Adam and Eve sinned against God by not counting Him trustworthy and doing what He said not to do. In short, they did not love Him, which is the first and greatest commandment. Jesus Himself said that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. God's commandments are not whims.

If the atonement is unnecessary, why then make Jesus die? It seems pointless. Why institute the sacrificial system and for 1500 years make prophecies about a Messiah who would bear the sins of His people so they might experience freedom from trying to be justified (declared righteous) by the Law (love God and love people). The people simply couldn't love God perfectly and love others perfectly. That is why they needed a sacrifice to cover their sins and the enabling then to obey the Law.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, though, that those who follow Christ must love others and not harm them. They must lose their life now to find it in eternity. Salvation is not just believing that Christ's blood covers our sin. It is embracing that as our only hope of reconciliation with God because we have not lvoed Him and have not loved others. Then, those who hope in Christ will do what He says. He enables them by his grace. This is the only way they will love God and love others (Matt 25).

[Ben]

I don't know if this will ever be read because it is so long after the original post, but I pray that is.

Your disregard for the atonement neglects the Old Testament. As Remnant noted, the Law and the prophets speak of Jesus extensively (Luke 24:27). The Levitical Law and the sacrificial system foreshadow the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. The Day of Atonement in throughout the Old Testament foreshadows that day on Calvary's hill the Lamb of God was slain, laying down His own life to bear our sins. Isaiah 53:6 speaks of God the Father laying all our iniquities on Him. That Lamb had to bear our iniquities so that God's wrath towards our violation of His commandments (which are a reflection of His character that delights to do justice, righteousness, and lovingkindness [or mercy]--Jer. 9:24) would be satisfied.

Read Isaiah 53. It "pleased" or it was the Father's "good pleasure" to "crush" His Son.

His justice demands punishment for sin--sin against Him and others. We offend the infinitely holy God by violating his Law, which is summed up by not loving Him and not loving others. Adam and Eve sinned against God by not counting Him trustworthy and doing what He said not to do. In short, they did not love Him, which is the first and greatest commandment. Jesus Himself said that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. God's commandments are not whims.

If the atonement is unnecessary, why then make Jesus die? It seems pointless. Why institute the sacrificial system and for 1500 years make prophecies about a Messiah who would bear the sins of His people so they might experience freedom from trying to be justified (declared righteous) by the Law (love God and love people). The people simply couldn't love God perfectly and love others perfectly. That is why they needed a sacrifice to cover their sins and the enabling then to obey the Law.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, though, that those who follow Christ must love others and not harm them. They must lose their life now to find it in eternity. Salvation is not just believing that Christ's blood covers our sin. It is embracing that as our only hope of reconciliation with God because we have not lvoed Him and have not loved others. Then, those who hope in Christ will do what He says. He enables them by his grace. This is the only way they will love God and love others (Matt 25).

These are humble considerations from Scripture out of love, not at all an attack on you personally. I see your logic, but we have to examine what Scripture says. What has God revealed about Himself and the way He operates the world? He communicates such in the Scriptures so that we might have knowledge sufficient to produce sincere faith (faith that embraces Christ's covering of our sins and then validates itself, as James testifies to, by doing what God commands) that brings salvation.